Almost everybody has been implementing the mandate. So we must too. I mean, if everybody else is doing it, it surely must be a great idea. It doesn't matter how many examples exist showing RTO has failed. Crowded offices, decreased productivity, tanking morale, all-around frustration. The only way I’d consider it a 'success' is if its true purpose was to push people out—if that’s the case, then maybe it’s been working.
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I think the argument in the long post is the definition of WFH as a policy.
The way I interpret that post is
- WFH is declared as a policy. Thus it becomes a benefit and has to be applied equally with rules and regulations like PTO. It has become an entitlement and applies to entire org.
- FWA is not an entitlement. It is a feature provided on a need-basis and can be managed at a location/department level. It has to be applied for periodically and is reviewable.
From an employee perspective they are both the same. Work X days from home and 5-X days at Office. So as an employee one does not lose that feature but it is not an entitlement like a PTO / vacation / sick time.
Managers will adjust based on local demands. Someone sitting in NYC HQ does not make the decision whether to fire a person based on swipes - without even asking the manager.
(It happened in our department - we lost someone who was a key person).
I would welcome that switch. My managers/colleagues will know the reasons and can compensate. Like NJ Transit breakdown, Hurricane bearing down, major accident on the turnpike - should not make me go and do a in-Office-Exception. WFH and RTO makes swiping a key event. FWA does not. I do not have to explain and fill forms with a robot (like HR).
I agree it can be abused. A toxic manager can make it not work. But that is rare I think.
@mp+1jh5bfm56
Indeed, RTO does not make economical sense at all. Only for cities, towns and govt agencies that need taxes, utilities, mass transit, constant money laundering for corroded infrastructure and union support. These parasites want people paying for old expensive mechanisms that our industry ‘leaders’ kow tow to. I know my bank account isnt served by RTO one bit
@m9+1jh5bfm56
Per the @ff+1jh5bfm56 post, WFH and flexible arrangements are a reality. Not a wish. As was mentioned, RTO is outmoded, antiquated and undesirable compared to firms that have vision. Its the same tired and hackneyed argument about physical gambling casinos, mortar and brick stores and being present for collaboration. The truth is, they are going extinct. For many jobs even call for physical labor and creation of a product onsite, people are getting flex time. The problem here is that in this industry, most of the leadership is tied to local and federal Government and also the physical commercial real estate they carry like bad luggage now. Even senior leadership knows RTO is just an excuse. And while it tames the anarchy of WFH with that excuse, it knows it needs to adapt to using WFH and flexible arrangements. If RTO is such a revived grand strategy, it belies the truth where locations are being sold, abandoned and not built out. It also is inconsistent with workers being laid off only to have roles move to a ‘cheaper elsewhere’ where they do WFH. Having full RTO therefore doesnt make economical sense. WFH is not going away. The punitive 19th century mentality and control freakism is.
That is too long to read but your point is valid.
- We seek BNY for a job, agreed. But we seek only if they are attractive with benefits like WFH
- BNY wants to eliminate WFH as entitlement and make it as an arrangement
- Yours sounds like a prediction than reality In some way it seems to be your wish
- You are stating the pros of WFH and where industry should head .. but the current leaders are not subscribing to it.
The "hiccup" is we are attaching ourselves emotionally to WFH. From a pure business model perspective, WFH pendulum has swung too much to remote working. It has to swing back to the old way of 5-days a week at Office before it eases back to FWA.
Internet, Broadband - all are tech advancements and they are electronic-leashes. No one disagrees. FWA was never an entitlement. It was an "arrangement" between your manager and you. As long as the department goals were achievable it worked out. FWA can be revoked by the manager. It was 100% localized control or tyranny. So without realizing the employees were thankful and showed that in their work for the preferential treatment
Now WFH has become an entitlement. That is where the problem lies. If it is an entitlement the firm loses its grip. So they are working towards removing that entitlement mindset.
Will the market forces make them back off? I do not think so. Why?
Lets take a division. There are client-facing, Run-the-Bank operations then there are innovation groups. Talent is really acquired in Innovation groups (lets be honest about it ). That department under localized control can make the deals and attract and retain talent - by even offering 100% remote. In a department local managers make it their decision to assist the employee. No day-care, child is sick , have to pick up the kid from school - it becomes a manager's call and 99.9% they accommodate. Your car broke down, you got caught in a traffic snarl at the tunnels -etc etc. There is a mutual understanding and accommodation.
When it becomes an entitlement one cannot be questioned. When I am on vacation I am not supposed to be reached (it may not be followed in emergency). That is entitlement.
And the firm wants to gain the control back and empower the department manager. This removes policy requirement and any associated labor law violation by not applying the rule equally to every employee. Also country based laws are different including overtime pay. They even classified us as hourly employees (we are required to work 2080 hrs a year and are paid hourly than daily wages).
Will firm lose talent ? No. If you are a star, they will bend-over.
Will they attract talent ? Yes and the decision will be delegated to local division/line of business
And they are in the driver's seat. We are the ones who solicited and went to the firm asking for a job and negotiated our salary. They DID NOT SEEK us - may be they scouted in colleges and the C-Suite. If you are one of the stars who they reached out then you have the upper hand to negotiate 100% remote and the decision will be LOCAL.
Without emotional attachment that is the reason why the firm is going to eliminate WFH as a corporate policy.
@ez+1jh5bfm56
Agree with your post and thought process conditionally. WFH is not ‘going away’. WFH is going through change. This whole RTO idea is really a trend that companies are using justify office space , justify unnecessary layers of management and appear as stern and strict to investors and regulators. However……. The genie is out of the bottle and will not be put back. Many companies will get rid of physical locations or find ways to repurpose them or write them off and then, they will use WFH and flex to attract the best talent. And that talent will come running. It is silly and blind to think that people are going to perpetually put up with long commutes, driving, tolls, energy costs , parking and most of all- extended time out of our lives. A lot of cities have a huge and ugly problem. They are broke, need tax money, commuters spending money, mass transit ridership and they have skyscrapers that really are now good for nothing. No one really needs a ‘freedom tower’ Or a Willis Tower anymore. There is almost nothing in a modern virtual office that doesnt replace these things. The dinosaurs have gotten a bit of a ‘dead cat bounce’ but it wont last. Civilization is moving on and people want better use of their finite time and money on this Earth. Companies and businesses will figure out soon how to embrace and use this necessity.
WFH is going away. That is the writing on the wall.
If a TECH company like Amazon can take that road why wouldn't traditional companies do that? The bean counters are thinking about LOCAL economy too.
WALMART did that. Didn't they close the DALLAS office and ask them to move to AR?
We may not like it and we may whine about it. We may give 1000s of reasons. But the fact is - WFH is going away.
Unfortunately along with that it ended the pre-covid Flexible Work Arrangement (1 or 2 days at home and flexible hours based on department needs ). We used to work morning hours with India and then leave early - and worked / plugged in more than 8 hrs without batting an eyelid.
Yes some teams were 3 days office 2 days home pre covid. Others were 4 days home, 1 day office and the team had to be in on the same day. Personally I was one day home but often worked from home 2 or 3 days as back then we were trusted to do our jobs and not treated like children.
I can't believe after us working hard over covid and keeping the show on the road, they now expect us to be back in the office every day or nearly every day. Commuting is a waste of time and money. Its not something I'm willing to do anymore. I havent had an in person meeting since 2018. I don't want to spend 3 hours a day commuting to have teams calls with people in other countries.
" I was involved in tracking employees and you can’t even imagine how little work as done"
But was much more done in the office when you factor in chat time, breaks, etc etc? Surely a person's performance is down to their motivation and workload? I've had days at home where I'm not bothered, I've had those days in the office too. I've had days at home where I'm a literal machine. And those days in the office too. It's foolish to think because people are physically present in a location that they're productive.
@cp+1jh5bfm56
Awww dingleberries to that…. We ‘made’ money during COVID and wfh was a success story and proof that BNY was efficient and had operational and technical business continuity that worked. The truth is, the commercial real estate model is obsolete, outmoded and undesirable for investors. Studied also showed that productivity ‘rose’ during COVID not just at BNY but everywhere. If RTO is such a great thing, then pray tell why is BNY selling and looking to get rid of so many office building locations and data centers? Because it’s a future liability that’s why. You drank the koolaid and believe that people need a parrot sitting on their shoulder to watch over them. What’s going on is that where we can destroy jobs and office space in the USA and use cheap junior labor overseas we will. And we will see any excuse going to justify it
The obvious is that in the two years of WFH COVID, people started to feel entitled and worked less every month. I was involved in tracking employees and you can’t even imagine how little work as done.
That research resulted in RTO resisters and workers who ingeniously escaped work.
I would show you my research but I sent it to Senior management and I’m not about to out myself.
Totally agree, and our home workers sc--wed us by not working. that my friends is why we don’t have WFH.
Remember calling off for Canadian wildfires while saying they couldn’t work from home?
Isn’t it obvious why they don’t respect us.
All I can say is I saved soooo much money during the full WFH period. Since we started going back my bank account has literally flatlined. During the last month since we were able to use up our work from anywhere days to lid the refresh period, I was able to save so much! It really su-ks that BNY can think about themselves and save money by offshoring, but can’t give us the luxury of deciding how flexible we want to be with our commute. They don’t give us all those amazing free Starbucks espresso drinks they give to those in NY! We’re lucky when we have TP and soap in the bathroom!
I graduated 2010 and joined the bank shortly after. I had a long commute but got used to the 5 days a week in office quick enough, but eventually I got used to having 1-2 days from home. The technology was worse on my end, but it wasn’t a bad deal. I also didn’t mind going in the office either because all my colleagues were in the same place and the work load wasn’t too bad. Now fast forward 10+ years and the workload has gotten crazy, most colleagues aren’t in my location, and there are plenty of days where I have meetings at 7 am and also 530 pm but not much going on in between. It’s a bad operating model. Being able to work from home has been a huge boon to my wellbeing.
If the price is right, I’ll make 5 days work. But if we’re talking BNY level pay still, no way.
This whole ‘full RTO’ is already failing and going down in flames. The problem is, we work in an industry run by dinosaurs like Jaime D and co. Who are so blind they cant find a tar pit to fall into. This is 2025 not 1925. With today’s technology, People do not want commutes, costs, tolls, parking, smelly uncomfortable trains along with delays, accidents, crimes and creeps. It’s easy for someone like Robin to follow the leaders and say this because he is an effete British elitist who is chauffered, jetted and pampered. The comments below are correct. Before 2020, I myself worked from home 2-3 days a week for 14 years and AST got 300% from me. And my now fired manager knew what I was doing and when. What we have here is failed leadership and archaic 19th thinking and worst of all….. no trust in us. Trust works both ways and this untrustworthy regime is the worst i’ve ever seen. Unfortunately it will take years to get back to normal and true leader with good management. As long as this one is delivering results on earnings and share price, we will not see a good honest workplace. 5 days a week here we come…
Guys, you know that before pandemics we had teams who worked 3 days from the office and 2 from home? I'm in one of them
@@b5+1jh5bfm56
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Nope- haven’t had to come into the office five days a week- Not since about 2010
Been 2-3 days in office since then with the exception of the Covid shut down years
Amazing to me how many out there complain about returning 5 days.
Did you not go to the office 5 days prior to 2020?
Manager here. I also heard RTO 5 days in August. Following the JP Morgan model.
We should go back 6 days
Definite boomer comment. Easy to tell cause it’s correct.
A true slacker indeed.
I’ll go back 5 days a week, but you need to pay me more. I can accept mediocre pay for the flexible hybrid schedule, but if I’m going to spend 5 days in the office, I’m going to a better company that pays more.
Why don't we go all the way back to 1784 and use oil lamps and quill pens at the office? Maybe an abacus for those difficult financial transactions.
There's nothing like wasting time and money to go to a building in the US where you can then communicate with your team members in India and other locations.
Oh well, one more reason to get out of here.
A full mandatory five days in the office by August 2025.
The goldbricks have to get back to working instead of babysitting and minding the dog while their wives go to work at Macys. There were more goldbricks at BNY Mellon than I ever saw anywhere. Why would they work at home when they didn’t perform at work?